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 Post subject: Never Nervous
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:13 pm 
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For those that don't know, Never Nervous is a blog that I write for that's ran by Phil Olympia, and which is mostly about music, and a little about culture. I'm making this thread because I'm an expert hype man, that hypes the fuck out of everything, except that normally I don't because I'm a lazy curmudgeonly fuck. So here's my limp dick attempt to spread the goddamned news. Hail Satan.

So we recently made a post about Scene Etiquette, wherein we discuss the various things that rile your fur about shows, be that as an audience member, a performer, or someone who sets things up, and we want your opinion. So what do you think? Anything you like or dislike? What would make shows better, rowdier, or more righteous for folks? Let's talk about that shit. Talk here or at that link that I cleverly hid in the previous sentence. I am an internet wizard.

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 Post subject: Re: Never Nervous
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:18 am 
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things that grind my gears-

sound guys not knowing how tube amps work
bands taking forever to take down their gear after a set (talk to people AFTER you break down)
people that hang out in front of shows without paying the door (just pay the money and then go hang with your friends, or stay home)
anyone that has beer in their hand but doesn't throw in a donation for a touring band(s)
kickstarter bands
venues/spaces that BLAST music after a set. give our ears a break, turn that shit down a touch.


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 Post subject: Re: Never Nervous
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:05 pm 
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Paul Watkins wrote:
kickstarter bands


I dig a lot of these. Please elaborate on this one though.

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 Post subject: Re: Never Nervous
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:24 pm 
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Darth Radical wrote:
Paul Watkins wrote:
kickstarter bands


I dig a lot of these. Please elaborate on this one though.


that shit bugs me, but maybe it's mostly a "bah back in my day you had to save your own money and quit your job to tour, and if you couldn't afford to record your album in a studio you had to borrow somebody's four track and do it in your basement and GET OFF MY LAWN"

if an existing band has a dedicated fanbase that wants to kickstart them some money to do something, i guess that's cool. but when i see a new band asking for money right off the bat, i'm just like, whatever happened to working for it?

but yeah, times have changed i guess. fuck it if it works i guess, maybe i'm just jealous!

am i like a republican/libertarian for bands now?


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 Post subject: Re: Never Nervous
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:35 pm 
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worm merkin wrote:
Darth Radical wrote:
Paul Watkins wrote:
kickstarter bands


I dig a lot of these. Please elaborate on this one though.


that shit bugs me, but maybe it's mostly a "bah back in my day you had to save your own money and quit your job to tour, and if you couldn't afford to record your album in a studio you had to borrow somebody's four track and do it in your basement and GET OFF MY LAWN"

if an existing band has a dedicated fanbase that wants to kickstart them some money to do something, i guess that's cool. but when i see a new band asking for money right off the bat, i'm just like, whatever happened to working for it?

but yeah, times have changed i guess. fuck it if it works i guess, maybe i'm just jealous!

am i like a republican/libertarian for bands now?


Yes you are. Jeez Hitler.

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 Post subject: Re: Never Nervous
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 1:19 pm 
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Darth Radical wrote:
Paul Watkins wrote:
kickstarter bands


I dig a lot of these. Please elaborate on this one though.


i don't know exactly why it rubs me the wrong way, but i just don't like seeing bands that haven't put in any time (opening shows for no money on weekdays just for the fun of playing and getting out there) just straight up asking for money. i know the biggest holdup for my own bands has been spending all our money from playing shows/selling merch on recording and mixing, then having nothing left over to spend on the release of the actual music. then it was back to the grind of merch/shows. maybe my bands have always sucked or whatever, but at least we work for our band money.

i do kinda understand a label doing a kickstarter for a record release or something, but then i wonder why it came to that. i also really like the whole video game/invention sorta kickstarter, for the record.

also, i could just be jealous of the bands that it works for, but still
worm merkin wrote:
GET OFF MY LAWN"


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 Post subject: Re: Never Nervous
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:58 pm 
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Paul Watkins wrote:
people that hang out in front of shows without paying the door (just pay the money and then go hang with your friends, or stay home)
anyone that has beer in their hand but doesn't throw in a donation for a touring band(s)


this. The lengths that people will go to to rationalize screwing musicians over is pretty unbelievable, though it does seem somewhat better than it used to be. I used to be broke all the time (now I'm just broke part of the time, heh!) so I understand wanting to go to a show and not being able to afford it, and if I'm running the door at one of my shows, I'll be sympathetic if someone asks. But dudes (and it's usually always dudes, of course) who just try to barge in can get fucked. I work two jobs and book shows on the side for fun, not money. While I try to keep door prices reasonable, I can't always keep ticket prices as low as I'd like and still pay bands decently. Most shows I book I don't even make back the money I've spent on fliers, much less the time and effort and cajoling and pleading it takes to get bands to come to Louisville. Not complainin', just sayin'.

And to the guy who snuck in to the Daniel Higgs show last year at Quill's -- boy, are you fucking clueless or what? Dude has lived a much harder life than you'll ever be within an iota of living, and you couldn't swing him $6? But you could drink Pabst outside in the alley all night? Real cool, dawg.

PS. Never Nervous rules!


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 Post subject: Re: Never Nervous
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:14 pm 
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Let's not conflate Amanda Palmer and Kickstarter. I'm not against kickstarter. I think it is a viable model to use for self-releasing material without also self-financing. The 'problem' with Kickstarter is the project/target price, or whatever, and whether or not gaming the system is ethical.

{Edit} http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/03/07/ ... -sluggers/
Failure to anticipate or adapt to shipping rates isn't a Kickstarter problem- It's just how he used it to cover the cost.

Back on subject-

I think the challenge is to find less obvious etiquette to discuss to make a less predictable and didactic article? Or more focused . . . Like the rules for epic post-rock shows are really different than, well, a lot of fun shows.

How about the etiquette of pick slides? You've got to have a few hundred words on that.

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 Post subject: Re: Never Nervous
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:20 am 
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As I mentioned on the Facebook thread, I think too many bands per show is a bad idea. Three is more or less my max. Besides, any more than that, either the earliest or latest band(s) will probably be playing to an empty room.


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 Post subject: Re: Never Nervous
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 2:41 am 
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I absolutely loathe when an opening band purposely stalls starting their set to wait for more people show up. Not only does it cut down the set times for the other bands, but in a house show environment it can lead to the whole thing getting shut down prematurely.


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 Post subject: Re: Never Nervous
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:07 pm 
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I'm on board with a lot of these ideas. What type of band/show promoter etiquette should we write about?

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 Post subject: Re: Never Nervous
PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:09 am 
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Paul Watkins wrote:
venues/spaces that BLAST music after a set. give our ears a break, turn that shit down a touch.

This!

Venue's need to buckle down and have some simple principles to live by. Kinda like Alamo Drafthouse's "No talking or txting during movies" rule, except it can be "No pay, no stay", "Shows start on time", etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Never Nervous
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:42 am 
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-The trend of shows actually starting on time (or no later than 20 minutes than the advertised start time) is great. Let's hope that keeps happening and crowds understand to start showing up on time.
-Diverse bills whether it's 3 bands that have different sounds or styles, or a band/film combo, or some other kind of performance or visual art thing plus a band is always fun and keep it interesting.
-A willingness among those attending (and playing!) to approach the experience with an open mind and an inclusive attitude. It's much easier to be dismissive than to try to look for the positive and to be supportive and friendly. You might have a better time, too. I think our scene has a reputation for being kind of snotty. I've heard that point of view coming from people newer to town who didn't grow up here going to shows. No one wants to go to a show or play a show where they feel like they are not welcome.
-I can't stand that weird psychological barrier/space than prevents the crowd from coming up closer to the stage than 20 ft.
-Shows that start after 10 PM and have 4 bands on them are annoying and I won't last past the first 2, no matter how much I want to see the last 2.
-For god sakes, don't put the out of town band last on the bill if they aren't a big headliner!!
-Lack of prior, thorough communication between bands/promoters/venues ahead of time never works out well.


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 Post subject: Re: Never Nervous
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:32 am 
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carrie_neumayer wrote:
For god sakes, don't put the out of town band last on the bill if they aren't a big headliner!!


I completely agree with this. Paul can attest, a local band in Elgin, Illinois pulled this on us on tour and it almost ended in a fight. We were basically told "tough shit, we booked the show, we play when we want." They played to a packed house then, as if on queue, the entire place cleared out including the fucking local band! We ended up not even playing because we would have been playing to the band we were on tour with and the sound guy. Luckily, it ended up that we got all of the money from the door because the band we were on tour with had a hand in booking and the dude the local band left behind to collect their cash (who wasn't even in the fucking band) was sympathetic to us when we told him what had happened.

Long story short, I completely agree never make the touring band play last unless they have a big draw or a big guarantee.


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 Post subject: Re: Never Nervous
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:04 am 
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in general, I will never understand why more local band dudes don't stick around much to watch out-of-town bands, or why a number of them don't even go to shows they're not playing. y'all like music enough to invest the energy, time, money, and effort to play it yourself, right? sooooo, maybe try being a bit more supportive not only of your local scene but also more open to listening to outsiders, too! you might learn something. and at the very least, if you want your band to tour or otherwise have connections outside of Louisville, it helps to actually meet some out-of-town bands! lots of them can help you get shows in places where you might not otherwise know anybody! seems such a no-brainer but there it is.


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 Post subject: Re: Never Nervous
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:29 am 
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hstencil wrote:
in general, I will never understand why more local band dudes don't stick around much to watch out-of-town bands, or why a number of them don't even go to shows they're not playing. y'all like music enough to invest the energy, time, money, and effort to play it yourself, right? sooooo, maybe try being a bit more supportive not only of your local scene but also more open to listening to outsiders, too! you might learn something. and at the very least, if you want your band to tour or otherwise have connections outside of Louisville, it helps to actually meet some out-of-town bands! lots of them can help you get shows in places where you might not otherwise know anybody! seems such a no-brainer but there it is.


This is me half the time, and I feel (kind of) guilty about it, especially because we've had such great shows lately. I still haven't caught Anwar Sadat. I bet that show w/Alcohol Party and Papier Tigre on Easter was great. I do what I can though, and I always try to watch the other band's I play with, regardless of the situation.

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 Post subject: Re: Never Nervous
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:39 am 
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yeah i don't mean to be too critical, since obviously everyone has lives outside music, and nobody can go to EVERY show. and lots of people my age now have kids and obligations that make it difficult to go out much at all. but it does strike me that there's more than a few musicians i know in town who seemingly never go out unless they're playing a show, which seems weird to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Never Nervous
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:03 pm 
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hstencil wrote:
in general, I will never understand why more local band dudes don't stick around much to watch out-of-town bands, or why a number of them don't even go to shows they're not playing. y'all like music enough to invest the energy, time, money, and effort to play it yourself, right? sooooo, maybe try being a bit more supportive not only of your local scene but also more open to listening to outsiders, too! you might learn something. and at the very least, if you want your band to tour or otherwise have connections outside of Louisville, it helps to actually meet some out-of-town bands! lots of them can help you get shows in places where you might not otherwise know anybody! seems such a no-brainer but there it is.


i'm super guilty of this, especially these days. it was easier for me when Skull Alley was around because i knew if it was lame i could just hang out at the bar or something. i saw Cheap Girls at a show Ben booked there (i think you booked it, ben? Where We Live played maybe?) and i was blown away.


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 Post subject: Re: Never Nervous
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:42 pm 
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- The internet, and the retarded divide it creates between the environment online and what happens in real life

- People with tremendous resources and marginal talent; their success happens while others toil in failure due to poverty

- Expanding on that, the inevitable class divide present in all subcultures that rears it's ugly head at one point or another

- The ghettoization of both information and culture present in punk rock; the copy-of-a-copy-of-a-copy artistic ideal that places more value upon conformity in both sound and values instead of actual innovation and challenging of boundaries

- The focus on tools of creation rather than the end result of creativity itself

- Insularity and conformity and the boring shit that comes with it; applies to any counterculture that has long passed it's expiration date

- Being old and bitter instead of young and angry

- The inevitable decline of idealistic young people into drunken hedonism and / or failure


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 Post subject: Re: Never Nervous
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:46 pm 
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hstencil wrote:
in general, I will never understand why more local band dudes don't stick around much to watch out-of-town bands, or why a number of them don't even go to shows they're not playing. y'all like music enough to invest the energy, time, money, and effort to play it yourself, right? sooooo, maybe try being a bit more supportive not only of your local scene but also more open to listening to outsiders, too! you might learn something. and at the very least, if you want your band to tour or otherwise have connections outside of Louisville, it helps to actually meet some out-of-town bands! lots of them can help you get shows in places where you might not otherwise know anybody! seems such a no-brainer but there it is.


Sage advice


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 Post subject: Re: Never Nervous
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:35 am 
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Never Nervous is a great blog!

Quote:
I will never understand why more local band dudes don't stick around much to watch out-of-town bands, or why a number of them don't even go to shows they're not playing. y'all like music enough to invest the energy, time, money, and effort to play it yourself, right? sooooo, maybe try being a bit more supportive not only of your local scene but also more open to listening to outsiders, too!


I guess some people in bands have jobs and shit that prevent them from seeing other bands as much as they like. Some of us are in our mid-30s not early-20s any more, and staying out and going to shows a few times a week is just not viable any more b/c you have to get up at 7:00 AM or earlier and can't go to work hungover. Not to mention, you can check bands out ont he internet before you go see them now, and that may influence a decision to go out or stay home. I do try to go to shows and "support my scene" but I don't get to as many as I'd like. I've still not seen Julia of the Wolves and I've been wanting to get to one of their shows forever. Probably the biggest thing is I'm really introverted and the thought of being at a show, around people, wears me out just thinking about it. /shrug.

Quote:
As I mentioned on the Facebook thread, I think too many bands per show is a bad idea. Three is more or less my max. Besides, any more than that, either the earliest or latest band(s) will probably be playing to an empty room.


Fuck yes. Even 3 bands is pushing it. Beyond that - make it a fest.

Quote:
I absolutely loathe when an opening band purposely stalls starting their set to wait for more people show up.


This too. The fucking worst. I am 99.9% my singer does this on the reg and it enfuriates me.

Finally - if you own a venue and a band has played there multiple times already, do not tell a member of the band "Oh I didn't realize there was a girl in the band." I know it's not meant offensively, but it's offensive nonetheless. I'm closer now to 50 than 15 and "girl" isn't appropriate to call someone that age. Further it's 2013 and women playing in bands is not exactly a novelty.

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 Post subject: Re: Never Nervous
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:11 pm 
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I'm 37, go to my first of two jobs at 7:30 AM, and I still go out to see bands when I want to.

PS. they're called Julie of the Wolves.


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 Post subject: Re: Never Nervous
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:14 pm 
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Quote:
I'm 37, go to my first of two jobs at 7:30 AM, and I still go out to see bands when I want to.


Welp, um, I guess everyone else should then? IDK. I guess some people's priorities change as they get older.

Quote:
PS. they're called Julie of the Wolves.


Yup, typo. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Never Nervous
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:39 pm 
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Love the earlier (or at least accurately projected) start times with bands. I totally understand the appeal of late, drunk and rowdy shows at, like, Lisa's and Mag bar too, though. Love when people try shows in new locations - I haven't seen any bands at Dreamland Theater, Cathouse, or Mammoth yet, but I love when folks take a chance booking bands in new locations. I know Harley's closed pretty quick, but I thought it was great to have awesome shows in a great old building downtown.
I wish some places would do a better job getting the word out about shows. Zbar (and many of the people who book there) does a great job letting people know well in advance about upcoming shows, and provides descriptions, links, etc. I would love it if Haymarket, Rudyard, and Lisa's had someone put a little more effort into some sort of useful calendar, or provided a way to get consistent info about upcoming shows. It sucks when a show doesn't get promoted until a few hours before it starts. I know sometimes bands pop into town and want shows at the last minute, but it happens pretty consistently with some of these venues. I just found out about a show that happened last night at Lisa's that I would loved to have checked out. Props to Never Nervous, American Gloam, Cropped Out, Sean Bailey, and Other Side of Life for consistently giving advance notice and recommendations.


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 Post subject: Re: Never Nervous
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:46 am 
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hstencil wrote:
I'm 37, go to my first of two jobs at 7:30 AM, and I still go out to see bands when I want to.

PS. they're called Julie of the Wolves.


Look forward to something audible, and portable soon.


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