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Who Owns Art?
The artist that created the piece of art. 42%  42%  [ 8 ]
The patron/label that paid for the creation of the piece. 16%  16%  [ 3 ]
The public. 42%  42%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 19
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 Post subject: Poll: Who Owns Art?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:05 pm 
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Artists and consumers alike, cast your vote. Who owns art?


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 Post subject: Re: Poll: Who Owns Art?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:06 pm 
Master and Commander

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I own art. I didn't make it... does that count?


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 Post subject: Re: Poll: Who Owns Art?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:11 pm 
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That's an obtuse question, especially given the three choices, when in reality, there are many many more factors to consider.

To boil it down though: If you make it, you own it. If someone paid you to make it or paid for you to make it, they own it. (Of course there are multi layers to intellectual property rights and such and any specifics to the deal have to be considered...such as: you pay me to make it, it's yours BUT I retain right for reprint and you don't, just to name one)

The "public" owns nothing art wise, unless granted by the owner. Period.


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 Post subject: Re: Poll: Who Owns Art?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:13 pm 
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Andy,

Let's assume you're talking about a painting. You own a physical copy of the painting, right? But who owns the concept of the painting? Now that you own that copy, is it the artist's right to make other copies? If someone else likes that piece of art, is it within their rights as a member of the public to make a copy of it to hang in their own home? What about trying to paint their own copy? Is it the patron's right who commissioned the piece to demand that no other copies exist? The artist's?


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 Post subject: Re: Poll: Who Owns Art?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:38 pm 
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paperdubs wrote:
Andy,

Let's assume you're talking about a painting. You own a physical copy of the painting, right? But who owns the concept of the painting? Now that you own that copy, is it the artist's right to make other copies? If someone else likes that piece of art, is it within their rights as a member of the public to make a copy of it to hang in their own home? What about trying to paint their own copy? Is it the patron's right who commissioned the piece to demand that no other copies exist? The artist's?



Uh......I think I just covered that.


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 Post subject: Re: Poll: Who Owns Art?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:58 pm 
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brian Eno wrote:
AMBIENT MUSIC

The concept of music designed specifically as a background feature in the environment was pioneered by Muzak Inc. in the fifties, and has since come to be known generically by the term Muzak. The connotations that this term carries are those particularly associated with the kind of material that Muzak Inc. produces - familiar tunes arranged and orchestrated in a lightweight and derivative manner. Understandably, this has led most discerning listeners (and most composers) to dismiss entirely the concept of environmental music as an idea worthy of attention.

Over the past three years, I have become interested in the use of music as ambience, and have come to believe that it is possible to produce material that can be used thus without being in any way compromised. To create a distinction between my own experiments in this area and the products of the various purveyors of canned music, I have begun using the term Ambient Music.

An ambience is defined as an atmosphere, or a surrounding influence: a tint. My intention is to produce original pieces ostensibly (but not exclusively) for particular times and situations with a view to building up a small but versatile catalogue of environmental music suited to a wide variety of moods and atmospheres.

Whereas the extant canned music companies proceed from the basis of regularizing environments by blanketing their acoustic and atmospheric idiosyncracies, Ambient Music is intended to enhance these. Whereas conventional background music is produced by stripping away all sense of doubt and uncertainty (and thus all genuine interest) from the music, Ambient Music retains these qualities. And whereas their intention is to `brighten' the environment by adding stimulus to it (thus supposedly alleviating the tedium of routine tasks and levelling out the natural ups and downs of the body rhythms) Ambient Music is intended to induce calm and a space to think.

Ambient Music must be able to accomodate many levels of listening attention without enforcing one in particular; it must be as ignorable as it is interesting.
BRIAN ENO

September 1978


The above is the liner notes to 'Music For Airports', considered one of the first "ambient" records. I respect Brian Eno quite a bit. I appreciate his approach and consideration to making music which can be pretty delicate, to say the least. I don't, however, agree with him. My roommate, Connor Bell, pointed out how the term ambient is a little offensive. The music is appealing, if a little unconventional, and certainly something worth more than one listen. Ambient, he posits, implies the music should be in the background, not the forefront, which Brian Eno , at east Brian Eno circa 1978, seemed to disagreed with. Of course, I paraphrase. Hopefully, that still finds Connor's intentions in tact, as that this is what I took from it.

My point here, is that I really like this record, and the genre that it inspired, but I don't care for a tract on how I should appreciate it. Once it was released, it was open to interpretation. I've made music with a very specific function in mind, but other people took it entirely in a different direction. That to me, is what makes music, and creating music (or any art) exciting, the idea that different people interpret things entirely separate from their intended concept.

Art is for everyone. I'm not arguing one way or another about downloading. I'm just saying that art is entirely in the eye of the beholder which makes it a public affair.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: Who Owns Art?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:01 pm 
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little_atlas_heavyweight wrote:
I'm not arguing one way or another about downloading.


Just to be clear, this topic is not specifically about downloading music, but that obviously falls within the overall question.


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 Post subject: Re: Poll: Who Owns Art?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:41 pm 
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paperdubs wrote:
little_atlas_heavyweight wrote:
I'm not arguing one way or another about downloading.


Just to be clear, this topic is not specifically about downloading music, but that obviously falls within the overall question.


Well, I think it's a boring subject. I understand if you make a living playing music not wanting someone to steal your music. I also realize that we live in 2008 and no matter how noble anyone wants to be about it, fighting MP3 piracy is like being mad at the sun for being hot. It doesn't make a difference. That's why vinyl is making a comeback, I imagine. Some people want the experience of an album, having to sit through even the songs you're not always into to make it to the gold, than a big pile of MP3's.

Different strokes and all though.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: Who Owns Art?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:46 pm 
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SEVERS wrote:
That's an obtuse question, especially given the three choices, when in reality, there are many many more factors to consider.

To boil it down though: If you make it, you own it. If someone paid you to make it or paid for you to make it, they own it. (Of course there are multi layers to intellectual property rights and such and any specifics to the deal have to be considered...such as: you pay me to make it, it's yours BUT I retain right for reprint and you don't, just to name one)

The "public" owns nothing art wise, unless granted by the owner. Period.

what if i make a painting at a studio space. the owner of the space comes in and gives the painting away to a art collector friend of his.... is it still my painting? would i be out of line to demand it back? would the owner's friend be out of line for not giving it back?

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: Who Owns Art?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:52 pm 
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Were you renting or squatting?

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: Who Owns Art?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:13 pm 
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what happened to a "NONE OF THE ABOVE" option?


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 Post subject: Re: Poll: Who Owns Art?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:24 pm 
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db wrote:
Were you renting or squatting?

renting.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: Who Owns Art?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:28 pm 
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Since it is now possible to make nearly flawless digital copies (or passable reproductions, anyway) of nearly all forms of art, this question is highly relevant.

A painter creates a painting. A photographer takes a picture of the painting and sells the picture. Should the painter demand royalties?

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: Who Owns Art?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:37 pm 
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Old Man of the Mountain wrote:
Since it is now possible to make nearly flawless digital copies (or passable reproductions, anyway) of nearly all forms of art, this question is highly relevant.

A painter creates a painting. A photographer takes a picture of the painting and sells the picture. Should the painter demand royalties?

or how about this.....
a painter creates a painting. another more talented painter does the same painting but... better. should the first artist demand royalties? (the whole pop art movement comes to mind here)

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: Who Owns Art?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:41 pm 
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Old Man of the Mountain wrote:
royalties?


The monetary issue definitely brings a sort of real-world relevance to the subject. Poll responders, would your opinion change in a world where money is not a concern? How does the monetary issue shape your opinion of the "ownership" of art? When the photographer in the Old Man's example sells one of his photographic copies of the painting, is he selling his photography or the painting? When someone takes a artistic picture of an architectural feature, who owns the art in concept? What about when that photograph is included in a collage?


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 Post subject: Re: Poll: Who Owns Art?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:42 pm 
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Old Man of the Mountain wrote:
Since it is now possible to make nearly flawless digital copies (or passable reproductions, anyway) of nearly all forms of art, this question is highly relevant.

A painter creates a painting. A photographer takes a picture of the painting and sells the picture. Should the painter demand royalties?


if it's just an exact replica of the painting as a picture, i'd lean towards the artist. if it's an artisy/interpretive photograph of the art, i'd lean towards the photographer.


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 Post subject: Re: Poll: Who Owns Art?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:43 pm 
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CFLZOMG wrote:
if it's an artisy/interpretive photograph


Who has the authority to make that call?


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 Post subject: Re: Poll: Who Owns Art?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:46 pm 
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awesomesmasher wrote:
db wrote:
Were you renting or squatting?

renting.


He could no more take your painting than a landlord could come in and take a tenant's TV set.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: Who Owns Art?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:48 pm 
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paperdubs wrote:
CFLZOMG wrote:
if it's an artisy/interpretive photograph


Who has the authority to make that call?


cage match btwn artist & photographer.


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 Post subject: Re: Poll: Who Owns Art?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:49 pm 
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CFLZOMG wrote:
paperdubs wrote:
CFLZOMG wrote:
if it's an artisy/interpretive photograph


Who has the authority to make that call?


cage match btwn artist & photographer.

yeah... i'm with cory on this.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: Who Owns Art?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:59 pm 
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hstencil wrote:
what happened to a "NONE OF THE ABOVE" option?


There's the real deal. You can't take it with you.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: Who Owns Art?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:07 pm 
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paperdubs wrote:
CFLZOMG wrote:
if it's an artisy/interpretive photograph


Who has the authority to make that call?


Image

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: Who Owns Art?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 8:36 am 
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This debate reminds me somewhat of the argument on the existence of a “soul” though it's difficult for me to try and describe WHY it does.
I don’t know if I have ever, personally, been asked “Do you believe in a soul?” as I think I would give a rather foggy answer. I do and I don’t. I don’t believe in a ghost that goes up to heaven or down to hell but I do believe there is something inherent in people that is more valuable than just the physical form; a belief that somewhat complicates my grievances with 99% of the populous…

As I bitched about in another thread, the age of convenience has certainly cheapened a lot of things and I think you can probably put art at the top of that list. Whether we like it or not, convenience has changed the way we consume (a proper word within this discussion) art, whether it be music, film, education even.
I just can’t kid myself into thinking or preaching that I can force people into digesting it in the “proper” fashion. I wish everybody had that desire but I know that fewer and fewer do. I also happen to believe that attitudes like Severs’ (which isn’t too far removed from my own) on this subject is considered so absurd due to this stigma that is very much American in origin: the idea that if you make any sort of “product” that is somehow elusive or somehow “laborious” in how it is obtained and/or enjoyed, then you must be a goddamn Commie for not wanting to move your product. Of course, the ironic flipside to that is how digital piracy has sorta’ crippled monetary compensation on the most basic levels……………………………………

Syd pretty much nailed it with what he said about, once it’s made, it’s up to whoever takes it in to react, understand, enjoy, etc.
It SHOULD be enough for an artist to make art- though I think it’s pretty discouraging to think that more and more generations are further removed from what can be the full impact of artistic expression and inspiration. (I am fine with filing that under “Idiocracy”.)

>>I really like this record, and the genre that it inspired, but I don't care for a tract on how I should appreciate it.>>

Absolutely. Of course, as hinted, I wouldn’t be surprised if Brian Eno in 2008 has a revised opinion on what that record was, is, and will remain. That’s OK.

Art is absolutely in the eye of the beholder- and I think that people are increasingly blind or maybe just prefer a virtual reality interpretation. Whatever.

As much as it makes me wince to speak like this, I will say that as an artist I have this feeling that once the music is made and it’s out there that it is pretty much out of my hands. I always hope that the passion and labor that went into it is somehow rewarded. However, at the end of the day, I know it’s a message in a bottle that may never be fully read or understood.
It’s satisfying enough to have done it. I would like to be enabled to do it more, uninterrupted by phone calls at a job, toothaches that last a year, broken down automobiles, blah blah blah………………………

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: Who Owns Art?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 8:49 am 
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Quote:
Connor Bell, pointed out how the term ambient is a little offensive.


I chuckle as I write this, so I hope Meester Bell doesn't take this the wrong way, but I think it's a little silly to classify the term "ambient" as offensive. I think genre labels aren't to be taken personally, and especially aren't to be taken literally.

I think some people play "Krautrock" that aren't German and might even have an allergy to cabbage. I also think there might even be "shoegaze" bands that are morbidly obese and can't see their shoes unless they are across the room.

OK. That was a little offensive.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: Who Owns Art?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:21 am 
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Who wants to start a band with me that makes no recordings, allows no recordings at shows, and produces no flyer or poster art?

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